Jerrod Ankenman ([info]hgfalling) wrote,
@ 2007-12-01 15:26:00
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smoking
(inspired by comments in a blog post at the Volokh Conspiracy.

One widely accepted idea in economics is that a free market is extremely efficient at matching supply and demand, using the price mechanism. As far as I know, this is even accepted by anti-free market economists, who simply believe that other negative factors surrounding a broadly-based free market economy outweigh this efficiency. I could be wrong about this, however -- if you have examples, I'm interested to hear.

Libertarian-minded people (I am one) extend this idea to other areas of economic activity as well. We talk about marketplaces of ideas, markets for health care, markets for mostly anything that can be provided by private producers and not the government. Now some of us argue this position from principle -- that is, that the role of government ought to simply be limited -- and some from our belief that this will result in better outcomes, due to the increased efficiency of the market at satisfying consumer demands.

In most cases, the free market really does do a better job of satisfying consumer demand. But there are some exceptions. For example, consider the bans on smoking in bars, restaurants, etc. that began (I think) in California in the midtolate 1990s. These were government action promulgated as working condition relief to workers (such as waitresses) in these environments. Before these government-issued bans on smoking, you would be hard pressed to find a bar anywhere that did not allow smoking. At the time, I was selfishly happy (as a non-smoker), but felt on principle that this intervention was likely overstepping the limits of government.

Ten years later, bans of this type have been enacted around the country. Smokers have adapted, and my anecdotal evidence leads me to believe that both smokers and non-smokers alike are broadly happy with the resultant atmospheres in bars, restaurants, etc, and if all non-smoking bans were dissolved today, a majority but not all of these establishments would remain non-smoking, while the remainder would return to allowing smoking.

The question I pose is: if free markets are so responsive to consumer needs, why was there no apparent move by bar/restaurant owners to move toward entirely non-smoking venues if it seems so clear in retrospect that there was a strong desire on the part of a majority of people to have non-smoking establishments?


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[info]andrewhime
2007-12-01 09:54 pm UTC (link)
I've pondered that question myself as well.

Best answer: People are big into not making any changes.

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[info]barts185
2007-12-01 10:42 pm UTC (link)
It only seems clear in retrospect. A lot of people (at least that I know - not statistically significant, but from what I remember reading of stories at the time, it seemed a representative sample) who were smokers and who are now okay with the non-smoking venues were vehemently opposed at the time.

Bar and restaurant owners who listened to their customers had to be very concerned that they would be out of business.

So, to your point - not only did there seem to NOT be that great of a consumer need, it seemed like it would cause lost business.

Without the imposed ban, if you had a choice of eating at a worse place (defined however you want - food, ambiance, etc.) but that was smoke free, or a better venue which allowed smoking, which would you choose? Especially in places which had separate smoking and non-smoking sections, I think a lot of people would still opt for the better venue.

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[info]prock
2007-12-01 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Just to clarify. First there is no such thing as a free market. So when any market doesn't perform as a free market might be expected to, it shouldn't be a surprise. Second, consumer markets aren't responsive to consumer needs, they are responsive to conumser spending. An important lemma in understanding that is that consumer spending is only mildly correlated to consumer needs.

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[info]prock
2007-12-01 11:11 pm UTC (link)
Another perspective... Government regulation was a result of market forces as constiuents lobbied their representatives.

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[info]dmorr
2007-12-01 11:14 pm UTC (link)
I once was debating the power of government intervention and this was the example I used, of a market that got a lot better due to regulation.

His response was interesting. He claimed that the social shift that made it possible to ban smoking in restaurants would have pushed restaurants towards going completely nonsmoking anyway, it just hadn't quite caught up yet. The reason it hadn't happened before was because it takes people a while to overcome common knowledge (banning smoking reduces revenue), but would result in a world where most places are nonsmoking and some still allow smoking.

His only real evidence was Las Vegas poker rooms, which have voluntarily gone nonsmoking. They didn't do that until the CA ones were forced to and everyone liked it though. I don't know if he was right but he might be.

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[info]whipartist
2007-12-01 11:23 pm UTC (link)
I think it has to do with fear and unknown results.

Being the first establishment to go nonsmoking is a scary thing, because you have no idea if you're satisfying most of your customers or jeopardizing the business. Once someone else has done it and paved the way, it's much easier for the second business to follow suit.

This is sort of what happened with California-- the state pushed the first businesses over the cliff, rather than waiting for a business (or, likely, a critical mass thereof) to voluntarily take the leap and show what the results would be. Once it worked in California, it became significantly easier for other locations to follow suit.

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[info]jnala
2007-12-02 01:38 am UTC (link)
I'm not as convinced that a single establishment going nonsmoking would have been successful, and it was just fear of the unknown that prevented them from doing so. Smokers used to expect to be able to smoke inside. If one establishment went nonsmoking, they'd just go elsewhere. Easy change, but potentially devastating to the one renegade business.

Being unable to smoke inside at *any* establishment is what changed smokers' expectations, and gee, it turns out that stepping outside to smoke isn't that bad, and that clean indoor air is kinda nice after all.

At this point it's well known that nonsmoking restaurants and bars can be successful. How many voluntarily nonsmoking establishments do you see in areas without government-enforced smoking bans?

Vegas poker rooms seem like an exception. There's no way for them to have a "nonsmoking section", people spend longer hours there and are more heavily motivated to avoid smoke than with restaurants/bars, and many of their customers aren't local and have different expectations about where smoking is allowed, in particular the tourists from California.

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[info]awesomescampi
2007-12-01 11:40 pm UTC (link)
How many would switch back if the ban was lifted?

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[info]evwhore
2007-12-02 02:30 am UTC (link)
Maybe it can be looked at this way: before non-smoking was rammed down the bars' throats (and I was similarly conflicted -- personally happy, but philosophically dissatisfied with having the government force it), we were at a local mininum, and the government force provided the energy to move over the hump to find an even lower local min.

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Free market response
[info]freelikebeer
2007-12-02 01:24 pm UTC (link)
I ditto [info]prock's statement that no markets are 'free'. They are either government regulated or self regulated. I think that it's rational that a successful business, in the face of stiff competition, would sit on it's position until the rules of the market changed, rather than try and change the rules of the market itself. Change engenders risk, and in this case the risk is ambiguous. Unquantifiable risk is the worst kind of risk.

Also, re: efficient markets, I've never seen a system with instantaneous impulse response that damped immediately to an equilibrium. If it looks like that, it is probably a question of the size of the impulse compared to the size of the market. There's a Gibbs free energy analogy in here somewhere but it's too early, and I'm too lazy to think about it right now.

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[info]doooook
2007-12-02 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Smokers do not like these bans nor do bars tha have a ban in a juristicion with a smoking jursidiction nearby. Escpecially when you go to cold places on the Earth, the inability to smoke indoors, even in well ventilated smoking rooms is presenting a health hazard to smokers, making them stand outside in the cold, damn, rainy, snowy, windy, shitty, crime-filled world.

There is only one clear libertarian solution to smoking and that is to allow niche non-smoking bars open their doors to serve a growing demand. If smoking bars are to become a thing of the past it should be through unpopularity.

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(Anonymous)
2007-12-05 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Smokers do not like these bans nor do bars that have a ban in a jurisdiction with a smoking jurisdiction nearby.


QFT

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[info]patrissimo
2007-12-03 04:41 am UTC (link)
I have no idea. But I do know it was the first law where my comfort trumped my moral beliefs in whether I was happy out it getting passed.

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[info]tjchen
2007-12-04 07:24 am UTC (link)
Allow me to inject a healthcare perspective into this discussion...

The ability of a free market system to provide impetus to healthful habits is rather limited. Let us take our friendly McDonald's for instance. Yes, they have offered salads and fresh fruit on their menus to be perceived as a healthy fast food option, but without question they are making the real dollars on Macs and french fries. And our country is probably more fat because of it.

I'd argue that our country pays a price for what we call freedom and the ability to choose a less healthy habit over a healthier one. The market may give us what we want or demand, but I'd say government (or activists in government) need to point us in the right direction from time to time.

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(Anonymous)
2007-12-09 12:07 am UTC (link)
I think an issue here is that not all costs are accounted for by markets and not all market participants are aware of all costs incurred.

Bar owners (or McDonald's) don't directly end up paying for the added heath costs from second hand smoke (or fatty food). In most of world this cost ultimately gets borne by the government; Medicare/caid in the US. From that perspective, maybe it's ok, even for a libertarian, if the gov't gets involved. Better might be a private health care that charges workers in smoked filled rooms more for health care, making the costs manifest.

Consumers don't realize or choose to ignore the added costs (in $ or long-term health) to them from smoking (or eating poorly). Again, a private health care that charged based on diet and/or lifestyle should ultimately make for a more efficient market.

-- sippy

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(Anonymous)
2007-12-11 05:10 am UTC (link)
First, casinos are/were heaviliy regulated in California, it's not like I could have opened a smoke free casino without going through barriers, many of them government induced. But the idea is that free markets work like evolution, they work by trial and error and don't produce the optimal solution, especially given a short amount of time.

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